[Jake]

Originally Posted by Fairygdmther

My definition -
An adv game is the gradual unfolding of a story by a player by exploration and problem solving techniques, without resorting to violent means.

FGM you're beginning to offend my delicate sensibilities with these definitions . One might go so far as to call them "closed minded" or "exceeding exclusionary."

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Kick > Trep and Walter

I don't know the word 'Kick'.

You are in a gaming forum. There are many members here, and the topic is 'What is an adventure game?'






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[Fairygdmther]

Originally Posted by Jake

Kick > Trep and Walter

I guess Jake doesn't kick Fairygodmothers!

FGM

[Jake]

Originally Posted by Fairygdmther

I guess Jake doesn't kick Fairygodmothers!

FGM

I kick you with complete sentences only.*

* See post 141!

[Fairygdmther]

Originally Posted by Jake

FGM you're beginning to offend my delicate sensibilities with these definitions . One might go so far as to call them "closed minded" or "exceeding exclusionary."

I'm assuming you mean my end phrase - "without resorting to violence". If you allow violence, you blur the boundaries once more. Note that I didn't use the vague word "action". In my eyes, if you allow violence, you have crossed into action-adventure.

FGM

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by Fairygdmther

My definition -
An adv game is the gradual unfolding of a story by a player by exploration and problem solving techniques, without resorting to violent means..

Okay, I'm gonna be here, and ask: What about platformers? There are plenty of them that have a solid story, problem solving, and no violence. Are they adventure games? And there are RPGs where it's quite possible to talk/sneak your way out of situations - no violence involved and story heavy. And, iirc, Thief encourages non-violence, exploration, and problem solving.

[Jake]

In my eyes that's closed minded That's all I'm sayin

[Jake]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

Okay, I'm gonna be here, and ask: What about platformers? There are plenty of them that have a solid story, problem solving, and no violence. Are they adventure games? And there are RPGs where it's quite possible to talk/sneak your way out of situations - no violence involved and story heavy. And, iirc, Thief encourages non-violence, exploration, and problem solving.

Those require manual dexterity and timing, which I'm sure don't fit into an upcoming revised and extended definition ¬ ¬

I'm sorry FGM, but your definitions just aren't reasonable or realistic. Instead of defining what adventure games are, what they have been, and what they could be, you are instead just making up a sentence describing the adventure games you like to play.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Yeah, but FGM didn't use the word 'action'.

[After a brisk nap]

Someone mentioned that a strong story at the core is the one thing adventure games have in common. I'm not sure I would agree with that. I think a lot of adventure games have a story that's a mere afterthought. Without going back to the whole issue of how people play vs. how something was intended, I don't think I ever actually understood the story in Myst. That whole thing about the brothers both being evil and having killed everyone in all the ages, or something? Went straight over my head. Until you get quite far in the game, Myst doesn't appear to have any story.

OK, so maybe it's a puzzle game...

What about the real classics? What about King's Quest 1? (Very loosely defined story, the game is mostly about exploration.) What about Zork? (Haven't played it, merely guessing.) What about ADVENTURE? (Arguably not an adventure game.) Isn't it in fact fair to say that exploration came first, then puzzles, and only then story?

Originally Posted by Jake

I think all of what you say is true, and I think I got a bit closer to what I mean in approximately post 47. But I think you're right regardless about the bad games w/bolted on puzzles. I think, though, that there's something to be said in the fact that these developers - even if they make a bad game with bolted on puzzles - were probably in some way striving to make a game that meets my definition, which is not the case for a good or a bad FPS for instance.

I agree that they're striving to make an adventure game. I'm not so sure that they're striving to meet your definition. You have to wonder if some developers were even trying to integrate their puzzles with the story.

I think you could make an adventure game (that was not an "interactive movie") that didn't contain either puzzles or exploration. It would probably have one or the other to some degree because they're generally important facets of storytelling in some way or another, but I think you're needlessly narrowing your definition by including them as necessary primary elements of what an adventure game is.

I'm not saying that adventure games shouldn't have puzzles by the way - I just think that forcing their inclusion by name into a definition is a bit odd. I don't mind that they're there (especially the good ones - those ones I even like that they're there!), but I really don't play adventure games for the puzzles. In fact, if someone made an adventure game that still let me experience an interactive and engaging story but didn't have me waving inventory items around at things or pushing a crate or negotiating a preplanned dialogue tree, I would be extremely pleased, and I would still definitely consider it an adventure game. I don't know what that game is, but I'm not going to discount its theoretical existence by needlessly excluding it from my definition of the genre.

I, on the other hand, would probably not consider it an adventure game. Solving puzzles is part of what makes me feel like I'm playing an adventure.

I think the kind of game you talk about exists, kind of, in what is euphemistically called "dating sims" out of Japan. These play kind of like first-person adventure games without the puzzles. They do have exploration, I guess. (I'm not sure you could even do an interactive story without exploration.) And no, I don't consider these to be adventure games. A closely related genre, perhaps, but not really adventures.

[Jake]

Originally Posted by Snarky

I think the kind of game you talk about exists, kind of, in what is euphemistically called "dating sims" out of Japan. These play kind of like first-person adventure games without the puzzles. They do have exploration, I guess. (I'm not sure you could even do an interactive story without exploration.) And no, I don't consider these to be adventure games. A closely related genre, perhaps, but not really adventures.

Good god no that's not what I'm talking about at all. I actually just got the strange but very strong urge to punch you in the gut, to be honest! That's really weird... anyway.

ARHJGHDS

[SoccerDude28]

Originally Posted by Fairygdmther

My definition -
An adv game is the gradual unfolding of a story by a player by exploration and problem solving techniques, without resorting to violent means.
adds the caveat that violent means should not be necessary or even desired. It also adds to the initial premise that story is the defining element.


FGM

Have you read about Dreamfall at all? The first scene Zoe starts a fight and throws punches. Later on there is a male protagonist and he uses more violence than Zoe because he is a fighter. So is Dreamfall not an adventure then? Where was it set in stone that you shouldn't use violent means to achieve your goals in an adventure game. In lots of scenarios, violence is necessary to give the story more authenticity. And I'm not talking about violence like Devil May Cry or DOOM 3 where you shoot everything in site. No I'm talking about being in a scenario where the most plausible and realistic action to take is violence. For example, a police cop game is much more realistic if you get to shoot sometimes, because can you imagine the life of a police officer without shooting a single bullet. It all depends on the context of the games. That's why I like Trep's definition. It does not limit a designer in what can be induced in an adventure game, but it still captures the essence.

[remixor]

HELPFUL HINT TO JAKE'S SANITY: give up now

[JoeX111]

Originally Posted by remixor

No, it has a kick command, which I'm sure if you were being less pedantic you would admit is actually a different thing. You can't just walk around kicking stuff. Like Jake said, you have to specifically execute a Kick>Door command; it's no different than the Push of older SCUMM games.

My approach might be pedantic, but my point is still valid. If it wasn't, other people wouldn't be calling her on it as well.

[Moron Lite]

Graded membership! Non-dominance of other gameplay styles!

Submit! SUBMIT!!!!

[Jake]

Originally Posted by remixor

HELPFUL HINT TO JAKE'S SANITY: give up now

Advice: taken.

[remixor]

Originally Posted by JoeX111

My approach might be pedantic, but my point is still valid. If it wasn't, other people wouldn't be calling her on it as well.

Then just say what you mean instead of trying to ensnare her with a shaky and by your own admittance pedantic word game.

[Jake]

Originally Posted by Jake

Advice: taken.

I suggest you take your own advice too.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by Jake

Advice: taken.

I don't trust you. I think you're secretly working on another stink bomb.

[Fairygdmther]

Originally Posted by Jake

In my eyes that's closed minded That's all I'm sayin

Jake, you began this long thread with using the story as THE defining element of an adv game. I found that too vague, and so did many others. I keep hearing our banned colleague saying the the original adv games didn't even HAVE stories - they were essentially puzzle games. Yes, they have evolved, but puzzles/challenges remain at the core. By not including that in your definition, you are ignoring more than 1000 adv games to date that were created on that premise. Perhaps you feel the exclusion of violence makes me closed-minded. Again, it evolved into a genre that entertained without the need to kill to acheive your goals. This isn't my choice of what I would like to play, but rather what I've garnered from many others, including many who are much more experienced than I am.

If I wanted to define it the way I like to play, there would be no timed sequences, no sound puzzles, no way of dying. But I didn't do that - I tried to be not so limiting in my definition.

FGM