[remixor]

Originally Posted by Jake

I suggest you take your own advice too.

Suggestion accepted!

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by remixor

Suggestion accepted!

I don't trust YOU, either. I think you're helping Jake out with his stink bomb.

[Fairygdmther]

Originally Posted by SoccerDude28

Have you read about Dreamfall at all? The first scene Zoe starts a fight and throws punches. Later on there is a male protagonist and he uses more violence than Zoe because he is a fighter. So is Dreamfall not an adventure then? Where was it set in stone that you shouldn't use violent means to achieve your goals in an adventure game. In lots of scenarios, violence is necessary to give the story more authenticity. And I'm not talking about violence like Devil May Cry or DOOM 3 where you shoot everything in site. No I'm talking about being in a scenario where the most plausible and realistic action to take is violence. For example, a police cop game is much more realistic if you get to shoot sometimes, because can you imagine the life of a police officer without shooting a single bullet. It all depends on the context of the games. That's why I like Trep's definition. It does not limit a designer in what can be induced in an adventure game, but it still captures the essence.

I've read a great deal about Dreamfall - have you missed the part where Ragnar Tornquist explains that you can avoid the violence by using evasion? If the example you gave of a cop were in a game, and had to shoot an occasional shot, but otherwise it would fit as an adv game, then it would be one of those exceptions that I referred to. If it were to be the premise of the game, however, I would consider it an action-adventure.

FGM

[SoccerDude28]

Originally Posted by Fairygdmther

I've read a great deal about Dreamfall - have you missed the part where Ragnar Tornquist explains that you can avoid the violence by using evasion? If the example you gave of a cop were in a game, and had to shoot an occasional shot, but otherwise it would fit as an adv game, then it would be one of those exceptions that I referred to. If it were to be the premise of the game, however, I would consider it an action-adventure.

FGM

I am not sure you can do in every single scenario. He was talking about Zoe because she is not the fighter type, but there is Kian who is fit for fighting in the game.

"Kian - Soldier, apostle, assasin

Kian serves his mistresses without question. His mission is the destruction of those lives deemed unworthy by those he worships.

Now he is about to embark on a journey that will turn his world upside down, challenge his faith, and make him question the things he has always held to be self-evident and true..." He will be fighting, that's for sure.

Again as long as fighting is not a major gameplay element, but a tool to propel the story forward, I don't see why it's not an adventure game.

[After a brisk nap]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

My own definition doesn't use the word 'puzzle' because many of us have this tendency to epistomologically identify it with very limited specimens. I prefer to use 'challenges that require and emphasize thought and logic reasoning' because it allows more flexibility and points more to paradigms.

I'm not sure "emphasize" thought and logic reasoning is strong enough. That still leaves space for the challenges to involve difficulty in executing them. For instance, the challenge someone posted earlier in the thread about shooting a boss monster with the right kind of ammo in the right circumstances does fall under your definition, I think, but I believe a lot of us would want to exclude it because, you know, you'd be running around, dodging bullets and lobbing grenades at the enemy.

Challenges that test your reflexes, dexterity, and general arcade skills, are not in the spirit of adventure games, I think most will agree. Adventure games may have them, but if they constitute the bulk of the gameplay it won't be an adventure game any longer.

The other difference I see between a puzzle and a challenge is that a puzzle has a Right Solution (or a number of Right Solutions), while a challenge may be solved in innumerable ways, some never considered by the designer of the challenge. I think that difference makes for a very different experience when playing.

Traditionally, adventure games have had a lot of puzzles and relatively few other challenges. I'm not yet sure whether that's a defining characteristic of adventure games or not.

(And finally, I wanted to point out that "thought" is a nicely vague term for how people solve puzzles/challenges. Whether it's through applying knowledge, recognizing patterns, creative inspiration, punning, comic-book logic, story meta-logic, or any other method, it's all neatly encapsulated by that one word, "thought".)

[JoeX111]

Originally Posted by remixor

Then just say what you mean instead of trying to ensnare her with a shaky and by your own admittance pedantic word game.

Well, since my logic is so shaky and pedantic, you can feel free to step up to the plate and make a swing here yourself. It's pretty easy to sit on the sidelines and make criticisms of everyone else who is having a discussion.

[Duncan]

Originally Posted by SoccerDude

I am not sure you can do in every single scenario. He was talking about Zoe because she is not the fighter type, but there is Kian who is fit for fighting in the game.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure you're right, Ragnar always talks about the alternate-solution-to-fighting stuff with regards to Zoe. With Kian (and possibly April?) you probably will have to fight at one point or another.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by Snarky

I'm not sure "emphasize" thought and logic reasoning is strong enough. That still leaves space for the challenges to involve difficulty in executing them.

But that's only one part of my entire 'definition'.

[remixor]

Originally Posted by JoeX111

Well, since my logic is so shaky and pedantic, you can feel free to step up to the plate and make a swing here yourself. It's pretty easy to sit on the sidelines and make criticisms of everyone else who is having a discussion.

I would but I've followed my own advice; sorry.

[After a brisk nap]

Originally Posted by Jake

Good god no that's not what I'm talking about at all. I actually just got the strange but very strong urge to punch you in the gut, to be honest! That's really weird... anyway.

Your talk of an adventure game that is all story and no puzzles or exploration (as far as possible) leads to something very much like these "dating sims", though. If you take out those elements, that's what you're left with, I think.

OK, so your vision might not require scenes of sex with anime girls... but it wouldn't exclude it either.

[JoeX111]

Originally Posted by remixor

I would but I've followed my own advice; sorry.

Awesome cop-out.

[Jackal]

Disclaimer: I've only skimmed some of the posts in this thread, so apologies to anyone who made similar points.

I dunno, Jake. I don't think the definition really holds up to much scrutiny. First of all, you've pretty arbitrarily decided that any puzzle-focused games like Myst aren't adventure games. Seems the only reason you gave was that they didn't fit your definition, which strikes me as a pretty circular argument. Maybe they are and your definition is wrong.

Secondly, I think the majority of adventures DO fall into the trap of strapping story onto gameplay conventions and puzzle solving. In fact, there are very few that don't, including those with reasonably good stories (we're talking focus, not quality). That doesn't mean your definition isn't something that SHOULD BE more prevalent, but it does mean it isn't something that's accurate now (nor has it been until now).

I also think you underestimate the importance of story in other genres - notably shooters, RPG's, and action/adventures. I realize you didn't say these genres didn't have stories, even important ones. But I think you are selling short their value as an absolutely integral motivation. I don't play shooters to kill monsters any more than I play adventures to solve puzzles. That's merely the gameplay mechanic used (though an enjoyable one, obviously). The story may be pretty wafer thin, but it IS a story, and I look forward to progressing through it. I do NOT play deathmatch and other multiplayer games for that reason. You're right that the nature of a shooter's story is limited by the need for violence, but that's irrelevant to your definition. They're just violent stories.

Overall, I still prefer a definition description that alludes to general gameplay elements - very generalized ones, but there nonetheless. If it weren't so late, I'd attempt one now, but it'll have to wait. It probably wouldn't be much different than Snarky's, though without the word "puzzle", as I find that far too limiting already.

[remixor]

Originally Posted by JoeX111

Awesome cop-out.

Luck of the draw, man. We'd be having a different conversation if you happened to challenge me a few minutes earlier.

[Fairygdmther]

Originally Posted by SoccerDude28

I am not sure you can do in every single scenario. He was talking about Zoe because she is not the fighter type, but there is Kian who is fit for fighting in the game.

"Kian - Soldier, apostle, assasin

Kian serves his mistresses without question. His mission is the destruction of those lives deemed unworthy by those he worships.

Now he is about to embark on a journey that will turn his world upside down, challenge his faith, and make him question the things he has always held to be self-evident and true..." He will be fighting, that's for sure.

Again as long as fighting is not a major gameplay element, but a tool to propel the story forward, I don't see why it's not an adventure game.

The reality is, as long as the game has not been released, we're only speculating as to how much, if any, fighting is necessary. We can't, with any certainty say, at this point whether it is or isn't an adventure game.

FGM

[Intrepid Homoludens]

From everything I've read, including interviews with Rags Tornquist, I think it's safe to say that Dreamfall will not include gratuitous amounts of action and violence. Whatever such that would emerge would do just that - emerge - from the story itself because it's necessary.

[Moron Lite]

No fighting or speculation necessary! The game will suck because there's only one hour of gameplay!

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Aren't you supposed to be in bed by now resting your brain?

[Duncan]

Originally Posted by Jackal

I don't play shooters to kill monsters any more than I play adventures to solve puzzles. That's merely the gameplay mechanic used (though an enjoyable one, obviously). The story may be pretty wafer thin, but it IS a story, and I look forward to progressing through it.

Me too. But isn't that not so much what the design of the game is about, and more the fact that both you and I have our gaming backgrounds mostly in adventure games* and/or know what we want to get out of a shooter or an RPG?

I think Jake said something about this earlier, but like you, I haven't actually read all the posts.

*That's a pretty baseless assumption actually, sorry if that's totally off target.

[Duncan]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

From everything I've read, including interviews with Rags Tornquist, I think it's safe to say that Dreamfall will not include gratuitous amounts of action and violence. Whatever such that would emerge would do just that - emerge - from the story itself because it's necessary.

Right. To take this tried-and-true secretary example from Dreamfall, you're not hitting her because she's THERE. You're not even hitting her because you want to take an action-orientated approach to getting in the building. She attacks you because you freak her out in the conversation. Which is, I think, a pretty literal example of action emerging from normal gameplay.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Right. Just as it's perfectly natural in the story (or in real life for that matter) to decide, on the spot, to shut up about that woman trapped in a gas chamber being shown on the monitor behind the imposter secretary, and figuring out a way around her to find out what happened.