03-30-2005, 11:56 PM | #181 | |
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If this made NO sense at all, see lateness excuse from earlier. |
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03-31-2005, 12:11 AM | #182 | ||
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This is the quote I was talking about in my last post: Quote:
EDIT: what I was basically trying to say in my first paragraph is that games have grown up since the late eighties/early nineties when it was pretty much only adventure games that had any real story, and the expectations of gamers across the board have developed too. So I don't think developers now can get away with unexplained shooting or platforming just for the sake of it. Last edited by Duncan; 03-31-2005 at 12:17 AM. |
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03-31-2005, 12:20 AM | #183 | |
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FGM
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03-31-2005, 12:28 AM | #184 | |||
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Here's another snippet from The Cold Hotspot: Quote:
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03-31-2005, 01:09 AM | #185 | |
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[digressing mode on] Isabelle is not universally rated as a rotten game. Only here at AG. Unfortunately. The reviews at JA and Quandary are much more positive. [digressing mode off] Carry on, carry on... interesting thread, even though it's all been said before in one way or another. |
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03-31-2005, 01:30 AM | #186 | |
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----------- Anyway, attention everybody: I am more than aware of the fact that the theories I proposed in this thread don't hold much water when applied in any practical sense. I proposed the whole notion mostly to get everybody talking, and in hopes of maybe making people think differently about their favorite genre of game for a few minutes. Random thoughts: I think Dreamfall is an adventure game, and I think Ragnar Tornquist thinks it is too, but I think after all the ridiculous backlash in his blog comments and on forums like this, he no longer feels comfortable calling it one. That might be a bit ridiculous and far fetched to speculate on, but I think theres probably some truth to that guess. I worry that adventure games are increasingly known as the "puzzle mystery genre" instead of "the storytelling genre" and that makes me sad. It breaks my heart in fact. I think the designers whose games I grew up with (the golden age Lucas and Sierra graphic adventure makers) saw adventure gaming primarily as an interactive storytelling medium with puzzles used as a vehicle for delivering that story. I think now it's flipped to be the other way around. Realistically I understand that puzzles are an intrinsic part of adventure games, but I think the equation is becoming increasingly lopsided, with designers building games in which the story is merely a vehicle for a series of inane puzzles, instead of the other way around - or better - trying to have them both working in tandem/in harmony. It worries me. I attended a very large handful of sessions on storytelling in games at this years Game Developers Conference and you know how many recent adventure games were used as examples, in any context? Zero. Modern adventures didn't seem to even show up on these peoples charts when it came to story discussion. Classic adventure games, yeah, but nothing new. It was for or these reasons (and probably some other ones too that I can't think of or don't really know) that I threw this stuff out for discussion. I do happen to hold a personal "ideal" picture/definition of adventure games that is pretty similar to what I've argued for in this thread, but, in a realistic sense if someone on the street came up to me and said "what's an adventure game" I would definitely give them a definition that included puzzles, dialogue trees, what-have-you. I think ideally the standard definitions we use when describing adventure games are a little worn out, and sometimes needlessly limiting out of habit or out of a lack of questioning, but I also know, on average, what elements more or less every adventure game on store shelves has contained for the past 20 years. I'm not completely retarded. Last edited by Jake; 03-31-2005 at 01:37 AM. |
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03-31-2005, 01:37 AM | #187 |
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I agree with pretty much all of that.
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03-31-2005, 01:41 AM | #188 |
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Jake, no one would ever think of you as retarded. When we brought these arguments to light, we were going by what you included and excluded. Unless you tell us what you meant, we can only go by what you are saying. And we aren't attacking you, just discussing our own opinions, so please don't take it so personally. I have a lot of respect for you and the thought you put into your posts. That doesn't mean I gotta agree with them all, does it?
And Fienepien - you've mentioned before the game Isabelle. I went and read Randy's review, and was intrigued enough to go to the site and buy it a few minutes ago. I hope I will thank you for it when I play it. FGM
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03-31-2005, 01:47 AM | #189 | ||
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03-31-2005, 01:54 AM | #190 | |
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By the way, is there really a chance that we'll (I mean all of us AGers) ever agree on one definition? I mean, after 100 or so thread on the subject, I'd though it was a lost battle... My take on it is: wait until a game is out, consider how it plays, and then you'll know whether or not it's an adventure games. Because even though we can't agree on one definition fro the genre, we almost always agree that game A is an adventure game and game B isn't. For example, I've heard a lot of people saying that Beyond Good and Evil was as close from an AG as you can get, that it could easily please most AG players, etc...(which is true) but I don't remember anyone actually saying that it's an AG. While almost everyone agrees to put Shadow of Memories (or Destiny, depending on your country) in the AG genre. So we all know if a game is an AG, but we don't know why. Does it really matter?
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03-31-2005, 07:14 AM | #191 |
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I guess it's like that apocryphal judge's take on porn - "I'll know it if I see it."
FGM
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03-31-2005, 07:38 AM | #192 |
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There's nothing apocryphal about it. That was Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart in 1964, in his consenting opinion to a court ruling on obscenity.
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03-31-2005, 07:41 AM | #193 | |
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Isabelle is 3D and moving your two characters around is more frustrating than in Grim Fandango. Didn't you say you stopped playing Grim, or was that someone else? But it's different. Absolutely unique, there's nothing like it out there. For me, emotionally moving too. And I cannot explain it or pin it down, but there's something very French about it. Couldn't be made in Anglo-Saxenland or Germany. |
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03-31-2005, 07:47 AM | #194 | |
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Okay, I actually took nyquil last night and went to sleep (novel concept!) so maybe it's too late and not worth it to comment on this... but I will anyway.
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Legacy: Dark Shadows requires you to shoot people with a gun, two or three times, and also to blow something up with a bomb. These are REQUIRED elements, in a point & click adventure game. Only one of many examples. Zork: The Underground Empire had swordfights... that's an IF action / adventure, then? Some people may choose to play kinder, gentler adventures that don't require violence, but arbitrarily saying that a game that involves violence is not an adventure is no different than saying, just as arbitrarily, that a game with a female protagonist is not an adventure, or a game that's not in first person perspective is not an adventure... and we know these things are not true. -emily ps And to catch up on the rest of the posts - Jake, I know where you're coming from (obviously). I left GDC feeling just as discouraged. If at a conference attended by an entire group of game developers -- the people who MAKE GAMES -- there is no talk of adventures whatsoever, what do we have? Not much hope for the future. It's depressing. |
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03-31-2005, 07:51 AM | #195 | |
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Are you talking about recent Mysty 1st-person games? Cause I don't see how that applies to recent 3rd-person adventures. Quoting my own post at JA: "Third-person adventures are turning into extremely linear interactive stories, where you can only interact with objects and people you need when they are relevant to a particular part of the story. Everything is story-driven. Syberia, Runaway, Moment of Silence, BS3, Black Mirror. Still Life and Nibiru too. Doesn't seem to apply to first-person games. Is it my imagination or are they getting more and more puzzle-driven... except maybe Myst IV." |
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03-31-2005, 07:57 AM | #196 | ||
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I think it's safe to say that no one BUYS an action game for its story, or is DRAWN to it for its story, but once you're playing it, seeing the story unfold becomes an inseparable part of the motivation for continuing. And the trend is clearly moving towards making that more and more integral. Quote:
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03-31-2005, 08:16 AM | #197 |
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Whew... That was a long read!
I like Moron Lite's look at the problem of definition. It would be anything but helpful to apply in maths or science, but in classifying forms of art/entertainment the "how much it resembles other things we defined as X" criteria seem okay to me. (Actually, I'd say many views presented here correspond with ML's one way or another: Ninth above, Trep quoting himself quoting Judge Stewart etc.). On one hand it has this platonic flavour of notion of the ideal Adventure Game floating somewhere in the sky, on the other - it remains open for evolution of the genre. Therefore, I would strongly oppose to bringing example of unreleased - yet already controversial in its 'purity' or lack thereof - Dreamfall as a proof for or against particular thesis. Let's wait these few months, shall we? As it was pointed out, we'll most probably agree on whether it's adventure or not, while discussing its genre now it's pretty much dancing about colours.
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03-31-2005, 10:04 AM | #198 | |
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FOV "Some people may choose to play kinder, gentler adventures that don't require violence, but arbitrarily saying that a game that involves violence is not an adventure is no different than saying, just as arbitrarily, that a game with a female protagonist is not an adventure, or a game that's not in first person perspective is not an adventure... and we know these things are not true." I'm voicing the concerns of many adv players from other sites, as well as my own. I feel also, that eliminating/minimizing violence just might be the saving grace for adv games in the current climate of blaming games for acts of real world violence. Distancing ourselves and our games from all the other genres just may cause more people to look at what adv games have to offer. This is obviously another issue from defining them, but to date, it is only a minority of the many adv games made that do rely on violence. If adv games could be seen as the non-violent genre, then it might become the family entertainment sort of game, if presented right to the public. And why do we NEED to have violence in adv games? Can't you get your fill of it from virtually any other kind of game? FOV - you go to GB - do you see anyone there advocating violence? That is a huge site of adv gamers. I'm sure you will see posts saying that they don't like/want it in adv games. And in fact you will see them defining adv games as non-violent. FGM FGM
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Nothing can bring you peace but yourself. Ralph Waldo Emerson Last edited by Fairygdmther; 03-31-2005 at 10:20 AM. |
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03-31-2005, 10:36 AM | #199 | |
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03-31-2005, 10:38 AM | #200 | |
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After all that's been said, I still think Jake's definition is touching upon something important in how we define adventure games, or what would be a useful way of defining adventure games. Genres and sub-genres get sorted out in terms of how well games can be fitted to a particular dialogue of design. Some of us definitely do think there's something wrong with taking Myst and its ilk wholeheartedly as adventure games. Why is that? At some point, whether it was the creation of 7th Guest or Myst or whichever of these types of games came first, some designers decided to make games in which puzzles carried a far more prominent role, "leading" more of the game design than usual, and in which the puzzles on average became more elaborate (more like the traditional puzzles of yore?) than those coming out of a more world/story-focused adventure design (starting with Adventure?). These games branched off into their own discussion, albeit one closely related to the prototypical adventure game. In a game like Half-Life, the design is led by the fact that it's a first-person shooter, that it revolves around a certain kind of gameplay (like what Jake and Emily were saying earlier). Few game designers think, "Okay, I'm going to come up with the story and world first, and then fit whatever gameplay style seems most appropriate onto that," and then purely by chance end up with an unambiguous first-person shooter, or a strategy game. And even if they did, gamers would be most likely to sort the game first as an FPS or strategy game, and then take a look at the story. We think of World of Warcraft first as an MMORPG, and then as a "Warcraft" game. Maybe not *every single* one of us does, but we're dealing with generalizations here, which is what genre's about. We're trying to figure out the logic with which a culture at large understands a game, not a principle of absolute inclusion and exclusion. Exceptional individual responses like "I played Monkey Island purely for the puzzles, not the world or story!" are beside the point. So anyway, yeah, I still think there's something to Jake's definition. We could probably fine-tune it some more. Last edited by Moron Lite; 03-31-2005 at 10:43 AM. |
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